I had a lot of competing titles for this post. Ultimately, I couldn’t choose.
- ABA testing
- Logitech vs Thrustmaster round 2
- Assetto Corsa and Logitech don’t play well together
- Silky smooth vs. the ragged edge
- Hardware matters
- Software matters
When I first started sim racing, I went through several iterations of Logitech gear including Momo, G25, G27, and DFGT. I did a lot of iRacing with a G25 rig. I quickly upgraded the brake pedal to a PerfectPedal hydraulic unit, and I maintain that at $300, it was worth every penny (they now cost $250). I went from G25 to G27 to DFGT steering wheels, each one being a slight upgrade (believe it or not, the DFGT is on par with the G27 and has some nicer buttons). Much of my DiRT Rally time was with the DFGT. I spent a lot of time using Logitech products. They never broke, and I was really happy with them.
For some reason, which I don’t recall exactly, I decided to plunk down $500 for a Thrustmaster TS-PC Racer. I went back and re-read my review at the time and here were the 3 important take-aways:
- Logitech is a great place to start
- TS-PC Racer offers more feel
- I was immediately a little faster with the TS-PC Racer
This week, I hooked up my old DFGT to a set of G25 pedals with an AP Electrix load cell brake pedal. The AP isn’t sold anymore. It’s not as good as the PerfectPedal, having much less range of motion and precision, but it’s better than a spring on a potentiometer. The whole setup is pretty similar to what I used a couple years ago, and I was feeling a little nostalgic to give the old rig a whirl.
So I loaded up Assetto Corsa and here’s the shocking thing I found: I can’t drive it for shit. I can’t sense or catch oversteer at all. I can drive a few fast laps by driving from memory, but I can’t feel the track, and I end up spinning. I hardly ever spin with the TS-PC Racer. I’ve looked at online guides and messed around with various force feedback (FFB) settings, but I can’t get it to feel good. I want to turn up the FFB gain, but that causes clipping, and a total loss of feel.
I thought maybe it’s a problem with Assetto Corsa, so I loaded up rFactor 2 and DiRT Rally. The DFGT works a little better in rFactor 2. I can definitely feel slides better, but it’s like I’m driving with welding gloves on. The same is true of DiRT Rally. I kept asking myself how I drove like this. The Thrustmaster TS-PC Racer isn’t a small upgrade, it’s a huge one. A Logitech wheel will teach you how to be smooth. In fact, it will punish you badly if you aren’t smooth. But it doesn’t let you drive the ragged edge the way the Thrustmaster does. Give me 100 laps with the Logitech and I’ll be able to put one of those within 0.1 sec of the Thrustmaster top lap. But those 100 laps will feature a lot of frustration and spinning. Furthermore, I’ll be driving more by wrote rather than feel, and ultimately, that’s not what training is for.
Update #1: ORP Experiment
YSAR reader Eric asked me to try the Skip Barber at Oregon Raceway Park. I don’t know ORP very well, and hadn’t driven it in some time, so it took a few familiarization laps to get reacquainted. After 12 laps I had posted a 2:03.6 on my Thrustmaster rig. No crashes, no spins. Then I switched to the Logitech rig. I had to be really careful with the throttle pedal because it’s hard to catch oversteer with the Logitech, but knowing that, I changed my driving style. After 15 laps, the best I did was 2:04.4. My last lap was a real burner, and I was a half second ahead when I crashed out. I would guess that I went off course on about half of the laps, and most of those were the early ones.
Eric also asked me to post my difficultly/assist settings. That’s easy because everything is always off. The only time I use any assist is when the car came with ABS from the factory. But my favorite sim cars are all pre-ABS models, so it’s rare that I tick the ABS box.
BTW, ORP is only available in rFactor 2, so this was all conducted there. rFactor 2 plays much better with Logitech than Assetto Corsa.
Update #2: Tiernan Experiment
Let’s see what Tiernan has to say. I think Tiernan’s claim to fame may be that he’s driven more exotic cars than almost anyone on the planet. All at parking lots speeds however. You see, he is hired annually as the official car mover by some famous auction or other. Of course, none of that matters here. What’s important is that (a) he’s a sim racing noob (2) he generally knows cars.
I first set Tiernan up with Assetto Corsa at Laguna Seca in the Chevy Monza in the Thrustmaster rig. After running enough laps to run out of fuel, he switched over to the DFGT rig. At which point he threw up his hands and declared that it was total shit. No feel at all. He did get within a couple seconds of his Thrustmaster time, but he was crashing all over the place. He was pretty frustrated and not enjoying it.
Then I switched the software to rFactor 2 and he perked up an said “this is totally fine”. While he didn’t try rFactor 2 on the Thrustmaster rig, I’m sure he would have liked that even better. But the main point is that Logitech FFB is basically broken on Assetto Corsa.
We’re in the process of building him a sim rig, and the question is this: buy a Thrustmaster T300 RS GT ($300) and play anything or inherit the DFGT (free) and avoid Assetto Corsa? Only he can answer that question.
I still think Logitech products are an excellent place to start with sim racing, but if you’re serious about training, you will be better served with a higher-end steering wheel. I have used Fanatec and direct drive wheels, and they don’t feel much different from Thrustmaster. But who knows, maybe if I used a direct drive for a couple years I could never go back to a belt drive like the TS-PC. I really love my TS-PC and while $500 seems like a lot for a steering wheel, it’s cheaper than real racing stuff.
What about iRacing?
If you noticed above, I didn’t report on iRacing. I had an iRacing subscription for several years, but I recently let it expire. Before I say why, let me say a few good things about iRacing.
- Everyone should try iRacing for a few months minimum. There are some experiences there that are hard to get elsewhere.
- iRacing has incredibly useful forums. Whether you want advice on software, hardware, or driving, there is a huge community of helpful people. Unlike most forums, there isn’t much flaming. Possibly this is because iRacing requires you to sign up with your real name. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. This community is really great.
- The Rookie ranks are worth the price of admission. Whether it’s a 10 car pileup in Turn 1 or getting crashed out by a backmarker on the final lap, the Rookie experience is a no holds barred crash-fest. How can this possibly be a good thing? Because you learn to recognize idiotic drivers and dangerous situations. I think one of the reasons I’ve never had a black flag in a Lemons/Chump/Lucky race is partly because of the iRacing Rookie experience.
- Lots of iRacers use the iSpeed application to record their fast times and compare telemetry traces. While the application isn’t as full featured as MoTec i2 or AiM RSA, for example, it’s good enough. And the real gold is having access to everyone else’s traces. Oddly, this may be the single best reason to use iRacing, and if you’re an iRacer who isn’t using iSpeed, well you suck at training.
- In addition to the official race series, you can also find custom races or private leagues. Both Lucky Dog Racing League and ChampCar Endurance Series run private leagues. Some leagues require membership, but I think the LD and CC leagues let anyone race at any time. It’s a lot easier to run a league from iRacing than setting up a private Assetto Corsa server.
- iRacing has a great collection of high quality tracks and cars you won’t find elsewhere.
So if I’m such an iRacing fanboy, why did I let my membership expire?
- I wasn’t using it very often. It doesn’t make sense to pay $10 or whatever per month for software I’m not actually using.
- I don’t really like wheel to wheel racing very much. I like perfecting my craft more than beating the other guy. That said, iRacing does have a time trial system. But it’s not a big enough selling point to keep me subscribed.
- The cars aren’t crappy or vintage enough. Where are the NA Miatas, E30s, and Civics?
- The FWD selection is tiny and uninteresting.
- The force feedback isn’t on par with rFactor 2 or Assetto Corsa (with a Thrustmaster wheel, Logitech may be about the same).
If you’re having a great time in iRacing, keep on doing it. There are lots of reasons why it’s the most popular racing sim. But if you get curious, have a look at Assetto Corsa, Automobilista, DiRT Rally, Project CARS, RaceRoom Racing Experience, and rFactor 2. Each has something interesting to offer.
11 thoughts on “Untitled #1”
Your comments about the Logitech wheel helps me to understand why I can’t seem to drive Skippy around ORP.
Unfortunately, Logitech is the only one that works properly under linux, Thrustmaster has said things about supporting linux for years but has done nothing.
I don’t like Windows, but when it comes to gaming, the support and performance on Windows is superior to Linux and Mac. I only have so much time in a day, and I’m not going to burn it fighting unsupported drivers and such. So as far as I’m concerned, Windows is as mandatory as a keyboard.
I think you can learn to drive a Logitech pretty fast. You have to be really diligent about reference points and drive by those rather than feel. It’s not optimal.
Have you tried driving Skippy at ORP with a Logitech?
If my budget recovers I might have to upgrade to an AccuForce.DIY.
I want to look at Thrustmaster vs. Logitech more closely, so I’ll run laps on both and do a telemetry comparison.
Don’t forget to let us know what your difficulty/assist settings are!
I updated the post with a Logitech vs. Thrustmaster comparison with the Skippy at ORP.
Updated again to get the opinion of a fresh set of eyes, hands, and feet.
Thanks for the follow-up!
I’m spending almost all of my sim time in rF2, so I guess the G920 isn’t a waste. I’ve been having the most fun in the Turbo Clio cup cars, they feel a lot like our Fox with similar lap times.
On a side note, are you doing any races up in the PNW this year? ORP is a 24 hour race this year, it’s going to be a blast!
I’m planning on doing the ORP 24 with Deaf Power Racing. I’ll see you there!
Do you have any experience with the CSL Elite pedals? For $200 with a load cell brake it seemed like a reasonable choice as I’m piecing together a rig.
Same on the wheel front – the CSL Fanatec wheel costs the same as the TS-PC, and while its not DD everyone seems to just assume that Fanatec > Thrustmaster?
I definitely like the look of Fanatec gear. I think there were quality/customer service issues years ago that turned me off to them, but I would certainly consider going that way if I was in the market for new gear.